00:00 – This video starts with a restatement of Brooke’s question as asked in chat.
01:05 – Vir gives what I consider a real answer when he says he’s out of the loop on theft issues. Brooke responds thinking it is a corporate canned answer. What is the reality? The answer is opinion. It becomes a matter of he, they, we said and think… So, it can’t be objectively decided.
On a social level Brooke was disappointed by not getting an answer he hoped for and I suspect allowed emotion to prompt a rude response. Vir, handled it well, IMO.
Next is a question about whether theft is growing? There is no hard data. No one has been tracking theft, AFAIK. So, we each have our subjective experiences. Some of us are never in places where the issue would come up. Others of us are immersed in it and, of course, all in between. The empirical, subjective opinion is theft is increasing, but no one knows.
03:00 – There is apparently a bug that allows Gotcha and Marketplace single items to be repeatedly resold.
Also, when a DMCA is filed the person often drops the targeted account, opens a new one and relists the stolen goods the next day.
Brooke says the money from sales prior to the DMCA is not taken by the Lab. He thinks that is the issue. Taking the money would remove the incentive for theft. Well… yeah. But, DMCA is just the first step in YOUR working toward taking the money. Even if the DMCA process is completely successful the Lab is never in a place to legally take the money. Only the one filing the DMCA will ever be in that position. Brooke apparently doesn’t understand the legal process.
Rather than learn the process and take on the responsibility, people try to get others to do what they want done. A bit on the entitlement side of the aisle.
05:00 – Vir brings up the problem of preventing theft of digital goods. I find those new to the idea have no clue how impossible it is. Some at the meeting still think there has to be a way. For 40 years it has been an impossible goal.
If you Google for how to prevent theft of digital goods, you’ll find numerous companies taking advantage of the uniformed and selling them protection schemes. Researching the history of digital copy protection buries one is the sales hype. When you find the history, you find the movie and record industry literally spent billions of dollars trying to develop copy protection. Every scheme was defeated in days if not within hours of implementation. The defeats were engineered, usually, by a single individual. So, billions to design and build and less than $100 to defeat.
Politicians that have no concern for free speech made it illegal (DMCA) to talk about or publish how to defeat a copy protection scheme. That doesn’t work either. The web sites move to counties with more free speech or that just want the money from hosting services. Or realize pushing the issue in the US against those violating DMCA speech restrictions would likely cause the law to be over turned on 1st Amendment grounds and won’t risk it.
The informed have learned the copy protection war has lost the technical battle. They have moved on to other solutions.
06:03 – The idea of better management of ownership on the marketplace is proposed. It is a nice idea. But, how does one do that? What does it require of owners? How complicated will it be? How much ongoing maintenance will it require? How much will it cost and who pays the cost?
06:37 – Brooke can’t understand why an account has to have 6 or 7 DMCA’s filed before the account is banned. It is nearly impossible to know if this is correct, is this the Linden standard for all DMCA bannings or the rare case that get widely pointed to?
I will point out that DMCA abuse is also common in SL. We have had a number of cases where the well-known author of a product has been served a DMCA Take-Down notice by a copybotter. We’ve done fund raisers for their defense. When the legit author fought back the copybotter lost. But, it cost a lot of time and money to fight.
So, even when there is provable ownership and original authorship, there can be disputes, legitimate and dishonest.
07:30 – Banning accounts… You’ve probably noticed that doesn’t work. IP addresses can be faked so, IP banning doesn’t help either.
08:30 – Jessicaann wants the Lindens to have a meeting to find a solution to cut down on theft. Meetings are so productive on these issues… NOT! This presupposes that there is a solution. It also presupposes there is something the Lab has not tried.
08:47 – Cathy Foil wants Linden Lab to run a sting operation. Build viewers they can track and ban those that use them. She presupposes everyone that might use such a viewer knows what a copybot viewer is. Think about that.
09:20 – The in video copybotter I call Miss Masked (MM) explains what she thinks are legitimate uses for a copybot viewer.
Legitimate creation tool…
MM makes video showing how to copybot
A legitimate use would be to retrieve a mesh for which one lost the source files.
Creators that have left and do not support
Fixing things the creator doesn’t want to fix
If you want to change color
I should have the right to change what I want to change.
There are ways to use copybot that are creative.
12:55 – Brooke voices his opinion that people are now becoming disenchanted with SL and leaving because of content theft. I am surprised he’s just noticing and/or thinks something has changed. He also thinks if there is a meeting they can find a solution.
13:36 – There is a difference between modifying something you bought for your use and modifying it to sell or give away to others. Cathy believes the prior is still wrong. I address the legal aspect in the article above.
14:50 – Vir points out that Content Creation is not the place for a content theft discussion.
16:00 – Question. Have you [Vir] made progress on a Animesh viewer? Yes. Doesn’t know when he’ll have a test version. Getting link sets to work. Coming along well. But, there is a good ways to go before getting a test viewer out.
19:25 – End CC UG meeting. Post-meeting continues.
There are those that think users should be licensed to upload.
Some think there is no legitimate use of a copybot viewer.
Some think educational use, to learn how something was done, is an OK use. That can be stealing trade secrets.
MM says everything on the Internet and in RL can be stolen. The sooner one accepts that the less headaches one will have.
23: 29 – MM thinks if she buys something, she can modify it for her own use.
24:00 – Vincent thinks uploaded mesh should contain verified personal information. It does now. But, if you add information into the mesh matrix in the hope of catching a thief, you have to find a way to keep the thief from removing the information.
27:30 – Copybot viewers sold and free. Most are considered to have malicious code. But MM thinks not as the authors of copybot viewers have a reputation to maintain… I suppose that is an honor among thieves thing.
28:15 – W͠ h͡ i͝ r l͞ y͠ ͝ F͞ i͠ z͡ z l͝ e͠ : CB [copybot] viewer creators are not your friends! They phone home your avatar name & password & your account is at risk of being stolen. Also, they connect to the CDS database directly as soon as you launch the viewer. It wasn’t that long ago that Sims got caught adding back doors!
28:40 – Cathy tried to challenge MM’s logic.
36:00 – Cathy states her policy for giving away free copies.
MM gives her justification for stealing it, making money, then buying it.
Cathy sees theft of MayaStar in that style as crappy advertising.
39:47 Medhue voices his opinion that if they plan to make money with it they should buy it.
41:00 – Good people but, can’t afford it.
42:25 – Cathy talks about her development costs
44:00 – Cathy is wondering why the Lab cannot come up with a marker to ID things in the market places so they’ll know when something is stolen. She edits DAE files, or at knows those of us that do, so I can’t imagine why she thinks those ID’s won’t be removed.
46:15 – Cathy is ‘assuming’ how copyboting is done.
47:30 – MM points out some don’t care if they are caught. They open a new account and restart.
47:50 – Cathy’s two-part approach.
48:45 – Brooke agrees with MM that people won’t mind getting caught. They’ll get a new IP Address and open a new account. Brooke thinks one has to cut off the money.
49:30 – Jalynne pulls in RL experience referring to the movie and record industries efforts to protect digital media, which all failed.
50:15 – Jalynne believes digital media copying can’t be stopped. Cathy thinks it can be slowed down. But, Cathy has to presuppose it hasn’t already been slowed or can be slowed more.
50:42 – TieGuaiLi thinks fines would increase the risk and slow theft.
51:15 – Medhue doubts a whole avatar or Animesh can be copyboted. So, extra value would be a good deterrent.
53:30 – MM says you have to accept it that’s just the way the world is.
53:50 – Medhue rebuts that’s the way it is. His understanding fits reality.
54:27 – MM says if producers stop producing to be stolen they will suffer just as much. She is so simple minded… Read Fountainhead.
54:48 – TieGuaiLi points out that in RL its less of a problem because you can whack ‘em with a stick. I like the thinking.
55:24 – Medhue, there are enough honest people in SL that it works.
58:07 – Brooke is talking about meeting enough people in SL that are frustrated, they’ll figure out something to fix the problem. O.O like tens of thousands haven’t already reached that point over the last 14 years…
59:35 – Back to requiring ID…
1:02:10 – Question about whether LoD’s for bodies are worth the time? Top and next down, yes. Two lowest, no and most makers skip them and no one notices.
From here to the end of the video they are talking about making mesh bodies.
1:18:18 – End